28 Sep 2018
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A more advanced solution also scales. Which I would argue is a bad thing!
A large super-crawler ends up taking on the Whole Web. Which leads to a massive directory. Which leads to the big players having the resources to game that directory. Drowning out the individuals again.
If there are 100,000 bloggers, then we need 100,000 blogrolls.
This is the magic of it: Google can’t compete with 100,000 blogrolls. Yes, they can aggregate them. Destroying them in the process.
So, yes, we agree on how decentralized can really give us progress. And I agree that our problems are mostly not technological, but are human problems.
(This is similar to the discussion on decentralization out there that seems to think the answer can simply be solved by new technologies. Dat and IPFS are fantastic, but we can decentralize in vastly more meaningful ways today—but we don’t. We could learn to be better human discovery engines.)
If people began to link again, to read again, to explore again. Less statistics, fewer algorithms. More curation, more editors.
Great stuff today, Brad!
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Couple questions about ‘owning’ your content on the Indieweb.
A few follow-up questions to this:
In the old days, when an ISP (or your college or whatever) would give you a public_html folder to put your website in—did you own your content?
In modern times, when you rent a virtual server slice to run Apache and serve your website from a Wordpress database—do you own your content?
If you put up an essay on a pastebin site—do you own your content?
I don’t really see the difference between using FTP to pass your stuff ‘in’/‘out’ of a public_html folder and using Micro.blog’s API to pass your stuff ‘in’/‘out’. If you can get your stuff ‘in’ and ‘out’—isn’t that the key? The API is just a different kind of FTP.
The public_html folder isn’t owned. The virtual slice isn’t owned. The domain isn’t owned. The pastebin isn’t owned. The API isn’t owned. What does it mean to ‘own’ anyway?
This is one thing that is really cut and dry with Beaker Browser. You do own the content because it originates directly from the machine under your fingers that you own.
(Not trying to defend Micro.blog or weigh in on the other interesting matters of this post—perhaps I should just shut up—just thinking about this one thing.)
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You can now customize your blog’s description on Indieweb.xyz. If you include a meta tag named xyz-blurb, its content will be used instead of the meta description tag. Escaped HTML can go in there. More to come.
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Oh, I haven’t used it much—my two attempts so far have been a failure. But I love the concept of leaven. I’m determined to do better with it. Your podcast is a good reminder.
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Rad color. I need to get cracking on this. My tomatoes are just starting to spill off the vines.
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I don’t want to get too deep in conspiracy theory, but Brad Enslen also posted a bit of history on Google’s tactics over the last decade here: https://ramblinggit.com/2018/08/when-the-social-silos-fall/#comment-451
And, actually, I don’t think it’s a conspiracy—I just think this can happen when you have 85,050 employees ‘optimizing’ the hell out of things.
I also wanted to leave a comment to say how cool it is to see the linked source code of your website—that you wrote your own Metalsmith Webmention code! I ducked away from Metalsmith because I didn’t want to add it. 👏
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Tremendous ‘search engine’ discovery!
What a tremendous discovery! I’m really impressed with this and am already finding it useful. I think this is the first search engine that I’ve been excited about in a decade.
You’re doing fantastic work, Brad. New discoveries all the time. Way to surf!
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Yeah, I think it is exciting—so much of the Web has been focused on messaging for the past decade, that it’s lost some of the overall feeling of hypertext in some ways. It feels like there is a lot of room to explore still.
For instance, I’ve run into this problem (well, this ‘problem’) where I quote something that has relevant footnotes and annotations—and it’s fine, the quote survives—but I wish it could survive the transplant better. (This is similar to the problem of posts losing all their styling when they are syndicated in any fashion.)
These discussions also are not just amorphous blobs—they have foci and intersections. Sometimes I wish there were Indieweb-like wiki pages that we could mutually edit in the spaces between the discussion. (And that anyone else could join on.)
Your thing about transactional loops: I think that’s part of what I’m trying to solve right now by moving away from datestamped links to wiki URLs. I’m envious of h0p3’s ability to refer back to pages again and again—so major updates to old pages will now come back in the blog stream. I am moving away from mere recency, maybe that will help? Thankyou for the dispatch!
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Welcome! Very good work. Now we just need to hijack some totally unrelated commercials and/or Angela Lansbury jumpscare clips.
Have fun exploring the Indieweb!
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A little directory of personal directories—sweet!
Ok, this is seriously insane! What a ton of work. Serious respect for your past lives in directory building!
Couple questions:
How much fanfic did you read while building these? I guess I’m wondering how much of this job bordered on literary critique or editing.
Scifimatter refers to ‘HipRank’ in the links—what was that? It seems that you used this to order the links.
You say on Scifimatter that you want to help ‘the surfer’, the ‘amateur and semipro websites’ and—most importantly, perhaps—to ‘encourage fans of SF/F to start their own website’—did this play out? (These are definitely my goals, too—I wonder how to accomplish them.)
Also, I’m a pretty big Godzilla (and monster movie, Kaiju, Biollante) fan, so I loved looking through those links on the Planets Doom. Also, I have to say: it’s impressive that many of the outgoing links in the directory STILL work thanks to the thoroughness of the Wayback Machine! Another benefit of static HTML—even if these directories are static versions of the original dynamic ones.
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Mmmnhmm—ok, good, good.
See, now I just really want to read your Bob Dylan stuff. I watch Don’t Look Back like once a month. Wish I could have experienced those days.
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Seamonkey is still alive?
I saw that on Wikipedia, but thought it was probably old and didn’t pursue it. But, hey, sure enough! This isn’t bad at all—it loads my site (seemingly perfectly) and allows me to straight-up edit the whole thing. I wonder if it would be difficult to merge this into Beaker somehow… (This plainly uses contentEditable—which makes me realize that I’m quite wrong—there are some lingering read-write features latent in Chrome, Firefox and so on.)
I’ll research what Jekyll and Hugo are, I’ve seen them mentioned.
I wouldn’t go too far into either of these. I previously used Jekyll, but it got too slow for me to regenerate all my HTML. Hugo is faster, but configuration is just too difficult. There is nothing yet as simple as Wordpress. I’ve ended up writing my own because Indieweb features had to be mixed in pretty tightly.
I think the most promising things right now are TiddlyWiki and Beaker. I think that, as Beaker continues to develop, we will see something as solid as Wordpress come out. But until then, I’d stay where you are comfortable writing.
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Ok—understood. So, it seems our group here still has a lot to talk about wrt how to curate links in new ways. (The directories of old seemed really dry and pointless to me—until I started talking to Brad and seeing that directories are still everywhere, but in disguise.)
Alongside that though, continuing your line about DuckDuckGo working with the curators—I think it would also be useful to define how we would envision search participating. I’d rather have us giving them directions than have it go the other way (similar to how RSS was an initiative by bloggers, preferrable to the myriad of APIs that are doled out by the networks.)
I guess I wonder how everyone feels about microformats as part of directories. (I prefer microformats—microsub, for instance—to RSS because it doesn’t require upkeep of a separate document that ISN’T really HTML.) But I can’t ignore that microformats feel clunky and can be implemented 100x different ways…
I also wonder how human curation should play a role in search. (Like—is it possible for curators to hone algorithms—is this already done?)
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I don’t think I connect with you and Brad quite as much on search—it’s one thing to search for ‘rotate div 90 degrees’ compared to searching for ‘aesthetically pleasing blog with poetry’. This is why I’m much more bullish on directories (blogrolls, wikis, that ilk)—if we can link to each other and describe each other to each other—that is another way to get somewhere.
Anyway, I’m not trying to convince you of my perspective, just saying that it’s cool: while you are looking for ‘useful’ and I am looking for ‘fascinating’—and in some ways I’m sure we’re both looking for both—we both want the same type of web. A well-lived-in one.
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Ok, sorry to be delayed in replying to you, Brad. I’ve had a broken blog for about two weeks. Rest assured, I’ve been reading along—around the time it broke, you wrote that Thank God for The Indieweb post and I couldn’t help but feel similarly, given that I started my blog around the same time.
I think you’ve got a great idea here—basically that Webmentions could be used to negotiate between two websites, to legitimize each other.
Maybe ‘nofollow’ links materialize into bona fide links once they each Webmention each other. I like that it could be started up from either side too. Someone who includes my directory in their blogroll is probably a good candidate to be in the directory.
One thing that I love seriously love about Webmentions is that they can just be easily killfiled. On Webmention.io, I can just nuke a mention and it’ll never come back. This means I don’t need any moderation tools built into my static blog, I can just use WIO directly.
So I think WIO is a great tool for a directory like this, because you could just build it in static HTML. In fact, this is what I’ve been doing with my directory—I am generating static HTML from a list of link descriptions. This allows me to easily host the directory aaaaaand now that you’ve mentioned this idea, I can hook up WIO in a few simple lines and have a built-in submission system!
So, yes, be flattered—I am stealing this/have stole. 😘
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What an encouraging thing to say—thankyou for taking the time to say it. I am definitely trying to go against minimalism (and mutedness)! However, I also feel like I’m exercising a lot of restraint—this still feels quite tame. (Also looking forward to Halloween—the world’s transformation.)
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This is an impressive list! Not because these are very good directories—I struggled to find any new links that were of use—but a) because they are actually still there, b) the categorization systems that some of them use are different, c) some of the most interesting parts are not the actual directory (e.g. the editoral guidelines are useful—they’ve been in this game a lot longer.)
I wonder if any web portals still exist. It was such a fad and—while I never got into them—I wonder if the idea is still plunderable. I suppose the current Twitter/Facebook newsfeed is a progeny.
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I’m not an expert on all grades—and I’m only three years deep into my research on the grades I specialize in, which is 1st through 3rd in the U.S. I have spent a bit of time in 4th and 5th—Chromebooks are very useful to these grades and are a step forward. (From no computer 😆.)
I have such a different perspective from articles such as Stager’s that I just don’t know where to begin! And since this is an off-handed comment, I’m not going to dig up citations—but hope to do more of that soon on my blog.
On the topic of laptops:
There was also a project that Linden Labs was doing on iOS called Blocksworld that was fantastic, but everyone ignored it (and their in-app purchases were awful.)
Since my focus is young kids, I feel (and the research seems to be showing more and more) that tablets are the sweetest computer at that age. A pre-reader just cannot navigate a keyboard yet. And a tablet is not a computer for mere consumption for them—armed with the right software, they will write, record, create visuals of all kinds, it totally opens them up. I hope to show more of the projects that I do with the kids because I think it will be eye-opening.
For me, the hardware issue is pretty easy at present: iPads for up to 3rd grade; Chromebooks thereafter. The more interesting discussion—the software—is where we should spend our time. And also, there is a limit to how much time you can spend with technology in the younger grades, for motor skill developmental reasons.
If I am off, I am always glad to be directed to papers I’ve missed!
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I ran across this site while out link hunting. Since I’m not planning to include software-related links in my directory—since business and software already have many directories—I will post it here. There is a discussion of this site on a blog called esoteric.codes, which has been a second fascinating discovery!
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Consider submitting your blog to this, if you are out there reading and have let me link to you before. I like that it’s focused on blogs—the directory I’m building is more general than that. His guidelines are very similar to mine: a few-hundred links with longer descriptions than you’d see on other directories.
Oh, and if you look at this and think: “I want to make my own directory!” Please keep me posted. I’m tracking the rise of these new directories closely.
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I think evangelizing the raw Indieweb might be over at this point. The term is at least five years old.
Webmentions have not had the uptake that even pingbacks had in their time. I still think it’s possible for platforms to find some hype—like Micro.blog has seen a lot of adoption, or Aperture might draw people in.
But that’s okay. I think what you and I are doing will go like this:
This is all very unlikely. Somehow, I think saying it out loud
makes it even more unlikely. But this is what I look forward to,
personally.
Difficulty: I think it is best if we have to do a little work to syndicate to xyz. I’ve thought about what if we could syndicate via RSS but that would spam xyz out. It does not need all my drivel, only my better (or longer) posts. And if you incorporated RSS then the real spammers would take over sooner or later.
Maybe someone can talk me out of this viewpoint: I think needing to have your own domain name will be a big hit against spammers. Basically, I’d rather take the Gmail approach to spam prevention than the Facebook/Reddit approach to upvoting and algorithms. Clickbait is a hell of a lot scarier to me than spam.
So spam prevention would involve:
All that said, Indieweb.xyz doesn’t excite me nearly as much as the directories that we’re working on. Those are invulnerable to spam. They can also be laid out and edited to the nines. And I think you’d only need a handful of directories to make an impact.
As always—really enjoy this ongoing discussion!
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A ‘steno’ format. A depleted word. A still personal word. A simulation. A read-write simulation. A truncated octahedron.
(This is the first of a new type of post on this blog—a “steno”. This format will house ‘thoughts’/‘discussions’/‘works’—much like an old-time c2-style or everything2-style wiki page that always ended up being an amazing catastrophe. The “steno” acts as hasty notes, links to other places around the blog, recurring nexus, link stations, breathers maybe, between the other articles and notes, revolving around a kind of ‘topic’/‘idea’.)
(In a way, I realize that starting off with an aside is a bad way to get anyone jazzed about some new ultimately pointless post styling—but I purposefully want these pieces to be less heavily edited and focused than all the other things. So, by throwing in a wankery introduction, it acts as a kind of gate you have to get through. So if this is too self-indulgent or tangential then you know to go away and I just continue and we’re all fine—although I think we’re deep into peak self-indulgence now that ‘people’ have evolved into ‘influencers’. Gah, that sounds condescending—and it is—and, worse, I think being condescending—especially in public like this—is probably much, much more destructive than influencing.)
(This isn’t just a gate, though, I want to mark this as the first steno, so that I can point to it later—and have it contain the reasoning behind this. Sure, I could make a separate steno that goes into those ideals, but it’s also kind of tied into the topic of ‘blogging’ anyway, so it’s like: why not just explain the thing and then flow right into it and then let it be for awhile and then come back and build on to it and—this is all just like what h0p3 does on his pages, this whole thing is a chance to have a part of that—and, again, what c2 had, what everything2 had/‘has’—it’s almost as if they were a fad. Like a sudden explosion of truncated octahedrons.)
Blogging simply made the static page seem alive. Then it turned into feeds and streams and the rate of speed was dramatically hiked up.
It’s possible that the word ‘blog’ is depleted. I think it was entirely stupid, but nostalgia has made it kind of neat. Like those little dixie cups dispensers that people used to have stuck on their bathroom walls. How great would it be to brush your teeth with such a companion again?
(This is unrelated, but if we are in a simulation, then we are probably deep into many, many simulations. It seems unlikely that we are only ever one-level removed from ‘reality’. It makes me feel like we’re probably either not in a simulation or that our inability to leave the simulation makes this absolute reality regardless.)
(This IS starting to feel strange. It does feel self-indulgent. It feels like it’s more for me than for you. Because I can’t rightfully expect anyone to read this—much like trying to read all of Wikipedia, there’s a threshold you have to set for yourself, that you’re not going to spend the time to read this kind of tripe. I don’t respect you for this, I don’t respect either of us. Maybe I never should have. And, for myself, it’s good to write carefully—to draw you in with great care and to not act this way. On the other hand, it’s hard for me to possibly know what to do with any of these pages! There are recipe and howto articles. There are anecdotes, punchline type things. You can easily add your two cents to a thought that’s propagating around. But I don’t know—I’ve never lived in a large city, and rarely even been to a really massive city, and I find myself looking at the buildings, just the sound of the air is so strange to me, the feeling of being on a street that is so worn and has fragments of millions of boots and beards and bits of sandwiches. I can see that it is an inverted rock tumbler, where the street is being tumbled by all of the things colliding against it. It is erosion of an industrial strength. But that wouldn’t be interesting to someone in a city, would it?)
(And then there is the experience of swimming—and often when we are swimming, we just wander around and work ourselves, talk and float. But if the pool is empty and you go to the bottom and hold your breath, it is the opposite of the city, it is insanely quiet, or an alien kind of subterranean quiet, and it feels like you have entered another level of the simulation, where you are a different person—you can do advanced yoga things down there that you normally wouldn’t be able to do and you sound differently, the bubbles that burst out in spurts produce loud, spontaneous waves and that’s what we sound like down there. And that, also, might not be interesting to anyone—or it might be interesting for everyone. Revealing that I also don’t know what’s interesting is a poor choice!)
Anyway, there’s about fifty reporters behind that door—real ones, not bloggers.
— Tony Stark, Spiderman: Homecoming, 2017
I like that ‘blog’ has remained a non-corporatized word in many respects. A ‘blogger’ is an ‘amateur’; the ‘blogosphere’ is the peanut gallery. It is a futile endeavor—and this is all good, because it important that some of these words stay personal.
Ok, so:
As for the software behind this particular blog, I call it Homeshade. I moved away from Jekyll the first week of September 2018. It was taking two minutes to generate my blog. That is down to three seconds now. (I’m sure Hugo could have done that, too. But I had other things I wanted to do as well—such as putting it into the Beaker Browser so I can just do everything from there.)
The technical part of this discussion is, fortunately, not that interesting really. The things that excite me out there right now are just being done with plain HYPERTEXT. (There’s another great corporatized word that never even got to be lame!) Homeshade is only a refinement, it is not a big deal. The point is only to utilize those things that we have that are under-utilized—like swimming on the bottom long enough to shut the sound out.
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Phonetic BPSBF. beautiful, pretty, smart, brave, fire.
Phonetic BPSBF. beautiful, pretty, smart, brave, fire.
Kaylee said this everyday before she died. “I am beautiful, I am pretty, I am smart, I am brave, I am fire.” She was six-years-old and she knew to do this. Yes, beautiful and pretty is redundant. 😎 One of many wonderful things about this mantra.
This is usually not said but thought: “You are bipsbiff to me.” Or sometimes I say it to myself: “I am beautiful, I am pretty…” To bring ‘her’ into my mind. Sometimes I just say: “I am fire.” (She is fire.)
Also, if you’re wondering who Kaylee is—the strange thing is that I actually never knew her or met her, so I have no relation to her.
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This is a tremendous talk, given so casually! I previously thought Dat was the exciting part of this story—but Beaker is incredibly elegant, now that I step back and survey the scene. At this point, I don’t care what kind of traction Beaker gains, I just want to use it for the sheer fun. (In olden times, the phrase was “get my jollies,” but I don’t know if that expression has taken a turn for the perverse.)
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You may now post anonymous comments via commentpara.de. For example, the link at the bottom of Weird Indieweb Idea of the Day: Guestbooks.
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The whole Truttle1 channel is full of videos about esoteric programming languages—but I also find its homemade computer animations to be terribly charming. There seem to be just a few productive kids behind these videos.
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Alexander Cobleigh’s directory to jacking into the decentralized web (dweb?)—no dat:// urls it seems, but useful discussions and howtos. (Appears Alexander also has a directory of links to an assortment of other things.)
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Well, yeah, I’m not sure how many bloggers like to spend time designing their blog. And if it’s all about the writing and communication for you—that makes sense! I don’t think it all needs to be organized and pretty, neither was the Old Web.
For me, I want to draw you to my blog where the post layout is preserved and you can feel like you’re visiting my little letterpress. To that end: thanks for saying hi!
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I’m not against minimalist blogs or anything—it can just be harder for me to see the uniqueness. But subtlety in color and layout is not lost on me. And a blog like this is very pragmatic. It is written directly to Github Pages. (Source, if you are interested in cribbing from this.)
(I try not to link to any large websites—but I usually give Github a pass because it’s not strictly a corpasa. It feels like linking directly to Windows Explorer for a folder. Wonder if there’s another way…)
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Just a little proposal to use 301 permanent redirects on Webmention.io. github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/113
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This page is also at kickssy42x7...onion and on hyper:// and ipns://.
glitchyowl, the future of 'people'.
jack & tals, hipster bait oracles.
maya.land, MAYA DOT LAND.
hypertext 2020 pals: h0p3 level 99 madman + ᛝ ᛝ ᛝ — lucid highly classified scribbles + consummate waifuist chameleon.
yesterweblings: sadness, snufkin, sprite, tonicfunk, siiiimon, shiloh.
surfpals: dang, robin sloan, marijn, nadia eghbal, elliott dot computer, laurel schwulst, subpixel.space (toby), things by j, gyford, also joe jenett (of linkport), brad enslen (of indieseek).
fond friends: jacky.wtf, fogknife, eli, tiv.today, j.greg, box vox, whimsy.space, caesar naples.
constantly: nathalie lawhead, 'web curios' AND waxy
indieweb: .xyz, c.rwr, boffosocko.
nostalgia: geocities.institute, bad cmd, ~jonbell.
true hackers: ccc.de, fffff.at, voja antonić, cnlohr, esoteric.codes.
chips: zeptobars, scargill, 41j.
neil c. "some..."
the world or cate le bon you pick.
all my other links are now at href.cool.
Reply: When the Social Silos Fall
The silos did help mainstream users form communities. This is still useful—carriers of rare diseases can organize on Facebook, stuff like the ‘TomNod’ group that coordinates to scan satellite photos. On Twitter, humor and art (pixel art, for instance) communities formed that can be casually observed by other Twitter users—bolstering their exposure.
But even all this traffic has become a bad thing! For instance, there is no ‘surfing’ any more (in the mainstream). For the most part, traffic just shows up. You don’t have to look for blogs because Facebook and Twitter stuff you with whatever they please all day.
My relationship is a lot healthier with blogs that I visit when I please. This is another criticism I have with RSS as well—I don’t want my favorite music blog sending me updates every day, always in my face. I just want to go there when I am ready to listen to something new. (I also hope readers to my blog just stop by when they feel like obsessing over the Web with me.)
This isn’t completely true—mailing lists and forums were a big source of real blog readers. Like Usenet before them. Google was a source of poor, transient traffic. In those days, you could share your writings/findings with fans of a certain band or movie director (if that was your topic) by posting on their forum, just as you would with Reddit. (And links were shared on forums and mailing lists.) However, now you can get algorithmed to death. Your link can get lost in the feed before anyone sees it.
I think the best thing the silos brought was simply the ability to be notified of a reply without needing to check your server logs.
But I appreciate your perspective, Brad. I wish I agreed more on this one! Maybe in time.